Plugin phobics rant

[P3rv3rt B3ar]

Speaking about de river in egypt

Dr. Bear

[dalanik]

Hey there Bear! I'm sorry to say that I don't have any problems with plugins except YOUR plugin(s). I am very much into customizing XLobby and want to try anything new that I can lay my hands (mouse?) on, but in case of your plugin(s), I simply lost all interest... because they're overly COMPLEX.

and that is the problem. No one has plugin phobia, for god's sake! Why would it be a problem to use xAnt plugin, you just copy it to plugins folder and it does all the work without any further interaction!

My Skype plugin is pretty complex to use, but in ExPert (or what's it called) you become a real champion of making things a mess.

Pleas don't take this personal, I really like you and your sense of humor and I think you have excellent knowledge on PCs (or programming), but you should concentrate on making things more user-friendly. I am an IT pro, I've been using PCs since ZX81, and when I tell you that eXpert is complicated to use, then there must be some truth in it.

I just couldn't resist, sorry...

Dalibor

[cioffij]

I agree with Dr. Bear's original comment about shyness of plug-ins and I detected playful humor, not irateness in his tone.

I think that this illuminates an important concept about XL. XL is built with a plug-in architecture, and as with many other products with that kind of design, it's intent is to be as customizable as possible with as little bloat as possible. The trade-offs against that are complexity and inconsistency.

I use a few plug-ins because I need the function they provide. I won't say that I don't like plug-ins. Rather, I want configuration to be easy and consistent.

So, in my opinion, the problem with plugins is not that they are "plug-ins", it's that they are not integrated well-enough.

A little more standardization with regard to packaging, install, config, and documentation would go a long way towards convincing the less technical that a plugin is not a band-aid, but simply a feature selection.

One other thing: I think XL is not really for non-technical people. Face it. This is a geek tool. Yes, the simplicity skin installs pretty easily, but anything but the most basic functions require at least a minor-geek mentality (edit text files, copy and move files). My wife, for example, who is a sophisticated PC "user" could never have gotten this all working.

But I love it.

Jim C.

[P3rv3rt B3ar]

Very well said.

I agree with u all acounts. Infact they are my keypoints just presented clearly and consistent manner. If i had enough patience to carefully form my statements (or secretary to write my stuff) that would probably be the way first post would have looked like.

Also the fact that plugins currently are band-aidish is IMO much due to the fact that SDK is somewhat lacking. Three biggest problems IMO are:

- Plugin - plugin interaction (see thread i wrote about subject if u wanna know more, also note Dalanik points about plugin dependency which is very valid indeed)

- Plugin database access (as pointed out by Badubo, if i remember correctly)

- Plugin management (also mentioned in my thread about meta plugin)

These omissions in SDK forces plugin writers to use hacks and repeat same code which are not only bad programming practise but also major cause of hard-to-hunt bugs.

[P3rv3rt B3ar]

I really like you and your sense of humor and...
I am an IT pro, I've been using PCs since ZX81

Nice, that means u must have catched my "theRAC" joke, i was so worried that nobody will

About xPerT... well, atleast its named consistently. when i make a lite version i will call it n00b.

Dr. Bear

[pdermody]

I have no real fear of plugins, im just lazy.

With regards to you 'resting your case' on my feature request thread, it was merely a suggestion/request that seemed like a good extension to the importer that is already built into Xlobby, simple as that.

Steve's importer does 99.99999% of what I need, and truth be told, I could live without the feature if I had to as I am shying away from online dvd's as it is.

Why don't I just use the third party plugin? Just trying to keep things simple is all (getting hard to do, but thats part of XLobbys strength).

My XLobby setup is probably a little more overly complicated than I'd like to admit as I have external events that execute my own scripts and programs for talking to my changer, for talking to my H3DII card, for talking to my TVedia/Xcard setup feeding the H3DII card via a PDI input, for talking to Girder and the USB-UIRT to use the macros I already have in there from over the years to talk to my AV equipment, for changing registry settings on the fly, for talking to iSCSI services, blah, blah, blah, etc. You get the idea im sure.

Now if I have to throw in say a third party plugin, thats just one more piece I have to keep track of during upgrades to the system, and or to XLobby itself in the future. With my own stuff its pretty straight forward, call external event with variables out of Xlobby to my own programs and scripts, or outright third party program that I deem essential to my setup.

Will I use third party plugins? Absolutely if I see a absolute need for it, if its something that XLobby can not fulfill, or that I am too lazy to write myself.

Do I absoultely need said feature that I requested? No, but it would be nice to have as the XLobby importer is already 99.99999% there. Do I appreciate the authors plugin? Sure I do, and if I have a change of heart in the future about keeping movies online again I may look at it again if it's the only way of doing things easily with DVD Profiler, or I may just write my own depending on what I find and how I feel.

With all that being said, I do understand your point and what you are trying to get across. Do I think I fall under your diagnosis? not really, but who knows, maybe I do... Perhaps we need some kind of 12 step program...

Eh, this was a little bit of a longer response then I intended for, sorry for wasting anyones time who actually read through this.

-pd

[lpg]

Hello everyone,
My name is Manny and I have Plug-in Phobia.
(Here's where you all say "Hi, Manny!")
I am willing to go to group sessions if any are available.

I think my disease started as a child when I literally inserted a butter knife into an electrical outlet. From that point on I've had an irrational fear of plugging, or as my wife can attest to; sticking anything into anything else.
=.

I do understand your phobia about sticking things into anything else. How did that kid come to be in your video????